Howitt and Fison Papers

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Search for ngatamūra* ngatamura*

XM237_ICDMS_lowres A W Howitt Australian Group Relationships (paper)

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inapplicable to the conditions of those tribes which have only individual marriage, and yet make use of the equivalents of terms which denote marriage of the pirrauru type.

[Gery written in the left hamd margin]Mr Lang says in the course of his adverse argument (op.cit.p.43)"Whatever the original sense of the names, they all now denoteseniority and customary legal status in the tribe with the recipro--cal duties, rights and avoidances ...". In these Dieri terms wecertainly have "the original sense", in so far that they exactlydefine the conditions to which they are applied.

Mr Lang also takes exception to the use of our terms to explainthe application of the native words for relation--ships. he says (op.cit.p.43) "Manifestly there lurks a fallacyin alternately using "sons", for example, in our sense and then inthe tribal sense, which includes both fatherhood, or sonship, insense, and also tribal status and duties. "The terms, in addition totheir usual and generally accepted signification of relationshipby blood, express a class or group relation quite independent of it."The reference for this quotation is given in a foot note as "RothN.W.C. Queensland Aborigines p.56".

Would Mr Lang prefer that I should endeavour to explain to himthe relationship of "son" by using only the Dieri words?For instance! "In this case the ngatani and the ngatani-waka areboth in the same relation to their ngatamura, yet the ngatani-wakais not so near in the relationship as is his neyi the ngatani.This is because, although both are neyi and ngatata, they are murdu-maraand not buyulu-mara to eachother/&c. [sic]"

Perhaps on further consideration Mr Lang may prefer my usualmethod of explanation, and also think it advisable to master the theory and practise of native relationships.

In these matters we are now down to bedrock, on the firm foun--dation of fact, and not upon an insecure stratum of guesswork.

Hitherto a student of the classificatory system, working at first hand among savage tribes, or in the study, with information atsecond hand, supplied by others has been obliges to rely uponinferences drawn from the terms of relationship alone. But fortu-nitely [sic] many tribes in Australia, over an area [greater - crossed out] larger than GreatBritain and Ireland, have, or had, before we occupied their country,174

Last edit 30 days ago by ALourie

hw0313 Flierl to Howitt 5/9/1888

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Terms of Relationship

In the language of the Dieri TribeAscertained by the Rev J. Flierl native word for "my"

The object of this inquiry is to ascertain the specific terms of relationship in the native language by which each person would address the others. To effect this a good plan is to arrange before the native informant sticks or any other con-venient objects in the order marked in the diagram explaining that these objects represent certain persons. It will be found advantageous to construct the diagram by this means little by little, ascertaining the first terms before proceeding to the others. As each term is ascertained it can be marked down in its place on the following list.

Example. Having placed two sticks side by side thus _1 _ 4 explain to the native that Nos. 1 and 4 represent two brothers of whom No. 1 is the elder. Then ask him "what does No. 1 call No. 4"? (i.e. by what term of relationship does he address him.) Supposing the native to be of Gippsland the answer will be Bramung. Insert 1. Bramung opposite to No. 1 calls 4. and ask "what does No. 4 call 1"? The answer will be Tundung. Insert Tundung opposite to No. 4 calls 1. If all the numbers are not procurable insert those which have been ascertained. They cannot fail to be of value. Due honour will be given to all who help in the inquiry when the results are published. Please return when filled up to.

A.W. Howitt Sale

[Diagram]1m 2F 3F 4M5F 6M 7M 8F9M 10F 19M 20F 21M 22F 17M 18F11F 12M 23F 24M 13M 14F 15M 16F 25M 26M

Explanation of Diagram - M signifies males, F signifies female,the persons indicated in the diagram are arranged in order of Seniority and descent. Thus No.1 is the elder brother of 2, 3 and 4. No. 3 is the younger sister of 4. 1 the elder sister of 4. No. 9 is the elder brother of 10. No. 1 is the husband of 5 their children are 9 + 10.No. 10 is the wife of 12 their children are 15 + 16.

[Table]No. 1 calls 2 - ngattata; 4 - ngattata; 5 - noa; 6 - [(tinara tidnara - crossed out] kadi; 8 - [ngatamura- crossed out] jimari; 9 - ngatamura; 10 - ngatamura11 - tidnara; 12 - tidnara; 13 - janko; 14 -janko; 15 - janko; 17 - ngatamura; 19 - tidnara; 25 - kami--------------------------No. 2 calls1 - neji; 3 - ngattata; 5 - kamari; 7 - jimari; 9 - ngatamura; 13 - kami; 25 - kanini; 26 - kanini-------------------------------No. 3 calls2 - kaku; 4 - ngattata; 19 - tidnara; 13 - janka; 15 - janko; 25 - kami; 26 - kami--------------------------------No. 4 calls1 - neji; 3 - [kanku- crossed out] kaku; 13 - janko; 5 - jimari---------------------------------No. 5 calls1 - noa; 2 - kamari; - ? 4 - jimari; 6 - neji; 8 - jimari; 9 - [ngatani - crossed out] ngattani; 11 - kalari; 12 - baiara----------------------------------No. 6 calls1 - kadi; 3 - jimari; 5 - ngattata; 7 - jimari------------------------------------No. 9 calls1 - [apiri - crossed out] aperi; 2 -[apiri waka- crossed out] papa; 3- papa; 4 - aperi waka or mama; 5 - andri; 6 - kaka; 8 - andri waka or jibi-------------------------------------No. 11 calls1 - taru; 5 - kalari--------------------------------------No. 12 calls1 - taru; 5 - baiara--------------------------------------No. 13 calls1 - janko; 2 - janko; 4 - janko; 5 - kami---------------------------------------------No. 15 calls1 - ngadada; 2 - ngadada; 4 - ngadada-----------------------------------------------No. 17 calls1 - aperi pirna; 9 - [negi - crossed out] neji; 10 - [karju- crossed out] kaku; 19 - kami; 20 - kami--------------------------------------------------No. 18 calls9 - neji; 10 - kaku; 11- kamari; 12 - jimari; 19 - jimari; 20 - kamari; 23 - kalari; 24 - neji-----------------------------------------------No. 19 calls1 - kaka; 3 - andri waka or jibi; 5 - papa; 7 -aperi waka; 9 - [neji - crossed out] kami; 10 - kami; 13 - tidnara-------------------------------------------------No. 20 calls9 - kami; 10 - kami; 13 - tidnara--------------------------------------------------No. 21 calls2 - andri (pirna); 9 [neji -crossed out] kami; 19 - [karku-crossed out] neji; 20 - kaku---------------------------------------------No. 22 calls19 - neji; 20 - kaku; 23 - kamari; 9- [negi- crossed out] kami-----------------------------------------------------No. 25 calls1 - kami; 3 - kami-------------------------------------------------No. 26 calls1 - neji; 2 - kanini; 3 - kanini waka

Last edit 8 days ago by ALourie

hw0317 Vocabulary, kinship notes

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Filial Group-------------------13. m. Son = ngatamura14. m. Brother's son = ngatamura15. m. wife's sister's son = ngatmura? 16. m. Sister's son = tidnarra17. F. son = ngatani18. F. sister's son = [tidnara - crossed out] ngatani 19. F. Husb broth son = [ngatani - crossed out] ngarani? 20. F Husb sister son = ?21. F. Brother's son = ngatamura?

[Right Hand Side Diagram]fA over mB - 1mA over fB - 2 mA over fB - 3

Last edit 5 months ago by ALourie

hw0318 Information from Gason, Volgelsang, Meyer and Flierl

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[Table in 3 columns]

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Filial Group--------------------------------------13. M Son ngatamura14. M Brother's son ngatamura15. M Wife's Sister's son ngatamura [in red]16. M Sister's son tidnara17. F Son ngatani18. F Sister's son [tidnara - crossed out] ? ngatani [in red] is right19. F Husband's brother's son ? ngatani20. F Husband's sister's son ? ngatamura21. F Brother's son natamura ngatamura

M - means "male speaking" - F - means "female speaking".you will find that 18 above is "natani" and not "tidnara".

Column 3[Diagram]1.mA--------------2mA---------------3fA------------------------------------------------------4fB----------------5fB-----------------6mB

This group requires further enquiry. The above diagram will be useful here. 1 & 2 are brothers, 3 is their sister; 4&5 are sisters the wives (Noa) of 1 and 2 - 6 is the brother of 4 & 5 and the noa of 3. ---7, 8, 9 are respectively the sons of the three couples. According to the above 8 is the "wife's sister's son" of 1; - No. 1 is the "father's brother" also the "mother's sister's husband" - now according to table A these two relations are Aperi wauka of No. 8 - therefore I expect you will find as I have written down that relationship 15 is "[ngatamura]]". --

You will see by the above that 16 and 18 are not the same relationship. In 16 -9 is "sister's son of 1. --while 8 is sister's son of 4 - now since a son takes the Murdu of his mother 8 is of the Murdu B while 9 is of the Murdu A. - But accordiing to Table A No. 4 is the Andri wauka of 8 - therefore I expect

Last edit 6 months ago by ALourie

hw0368 Dieri language and kinship

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Parental + Filial GroupsEnglish terms Vogelsang Gason Meyer24 Mother's Pirauru [appiri - crossed out] apiri wauka nginjaru25 Father appiri apiri Napini aperi26 Fathers Brother appiri apiri wauka mama27 Mothers Sisters Husband ngappiri apiri wauka aperi waka28 Fathers Sisters Husband Kaka Kaka29 Mothers Brother Kaka or Yandri waka Kaka30 Fathers Pirauru audri wauka jipi wautja31 Mother nganari audri nandrini andri32 Mother's Sister tidnara or ngauari pirra audri wauka jipi kamandi33 Father's Brother's wife ngandri audri wauka audru waka34 Mother's Brother's wife papa audri wauka audri waka35 Father's Sister papa papaM 36 Son ngata mura atha moora or atha moonanie ngatamuraM 37 Brothers son ngata mura ngata muraM 38 Wife's sisters son ngatamura ngata muraM39 Wife's brother's son tinara tinaraM40 Sister's Son tinara ngata muraF41 Son ngatani ngataniF42 Sister's Son tinara athani wauka ngataniF43 Husbands brothers son tinara adada wauka ngataniF44 Husbands sister's son ngata mura adada wauka ngata muraF45 Brother's son ngata mura ngata mura

[diagram at bottom of the page]

Last edit about 1 month ago by ALourie

hw0346 Meyer to Howitt June 1885

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M 16. Son's Wife taruM. 17. Daughter's Husband taruF. 18. Son's Wife kalariF. 19. Daughter's Husband paiaraF. 20. Husband's father taruM. 21. Wife's father taruF. 22. Husband's Mother kalariM. 23. Wife's Mother paiara

24. Mother's Pirangūrū nginjaru25. Father aperi26. Father's Brother mama27. Mother's Sister's Husband aperi waka28. Father's Sister's Husband kaka29. Mother's Brother kaka30. Father's Pirangūrū jipi wantja31. Mother andri32. Mother's Sister jipi kamaneli33. Father's Brother's Wife andri waka34. Mother's Brother's Wife papa35. Father's Sister papa36. Son ngatamūra

Last edit 6 months ago by ALourie
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M. 37. Brother's Son ngatamūraM. 38. Wife's Sister's Son ngatamūraM. 39. Wife's Brother's Son tinaraM. 40. Sister's Son ngatamūraF. 41. Son ngataniF. 42. Sister's Son ngataniF. 43. Husband's Brother's Son ngataniF. 44. Husband's sister's son ngatamūraF. 45. Brother's son ngatamūra

Last edit 6 months ago by ALourie

hw0363 Dieri vocabulary and grammar

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DieriEnglish term Aboriginal term RemarksM Son gnatta mura [(or papa)- crossed out]M Brother's son dittoM Wife's Sister's son [ditto]M Wife's brother's son tiaorraM Sister's son dittoF Son (natamura) ngatani [diagram] Kroki Kumelyn tinarra Krokyer Kumet sonF Sister's son tinarra?F Husband's brother's son dittoF Husband's Sister's son ngatamuraF Brother's son ditto

Note M means "Male speaking"F means "Female speaking"V

Last edit 4 months ago by ALourie

hw0364 Notes on the Dieri

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Melded from &.7This isCurr's/Curr Table expanded

Dieri Relationship[3 columns different sources Meyer, Flierl, VogelsangC1 English(Meyer) C2 Dieri (Flierl) C3 General English term (Vogelsang)1. Father aperi; apiri apiri; - apiri2. Fathers brother mama; apiri wauka aperi; Uncle apiri3. Mother andri; andri andri; - andri4. Mothers sister -; andri wauka andri wauka?; aunt andri5. Fathers sister papa?; [?] [?]; aunt papa6. Mothers brother kaka?; [?] [?]; uncle kaka7. M. Brothers son ngatamura;atamura ngatamura; nephew ngatamuraFather - (four sist [?] = moth. bro8. F. Brothers son -; - ngatamura?; nephew ngatamura9. M. Sisters son -; tidnara tidnara; nephew tinara1o. F. Sisters son -; atani ngatani; nephew -11. M. Brothers wife -; noa jimari?; sister in law noa12. M. Wifes sister -; noa [tidnari?]; sister in law noa13. F. Brothers wife -; kamari kamari; Sister in law kamari14. F. Husbands sister -; kamari kamari; Sister in law kamari15. M. Wifes brother -; kareti Kaai; Brother in law kareti16. M. Sisters husband -; kareti Kaai; Brother in law kareti17. F. Husbands brother -; noa jimari; Brother in law kaai18. F. Sisters husband -; noa wauka jimari; brother in law -19. M. Fathers brothers son -; negi or ngattata neji; male cousin neji20. M, Fathers sisters son -; kami kami; male cousin kami21. M. Fathers brothers daughter -; kauku or ngattata kaku; female cousin [kuku?]22.M. Fathers sisters daughter -; kami kami; female cousin kamiM = male speaking - F = female speakingPlease to fill in and correct the Dierirelationshipsin the second column. I have marked there which somewhat doubtful thus ? [? in red ink]

Last edit about 1 month ago by ALourie

XM310 6/07/1898

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Bethesda den 8. Juli 1898 Sehr geehrter Herr Howitt! Ohne Z6gem will ich gleich iibergehen zu dem von Ihnen aufgestelltem Diagram. Meine mit letzter Post Ihnen zugesandte Auseinandersetzung iiber die "noa ¬relationship" wird Ihnen wohl zu Handen sein, so daB ich einfach [ an] sie ankniipfen kann. Es wird wohl nichts ausmachen, daB ich das Diagramm in so weit umgeandert habe, als ich anstatt der in die graue Vorzeit zuriickreichenden [P?Jalaijudlantina u. Kadlana etc. die in zweiter Reihe stehenden Tipakulpani, Kunpalina etc. die erste Generation sein lieB. Selbst aus diesem Diagramm sind nur noch No 9, 15, 16 u. 18 ~~~ . [Siehe Diagramm im Original: Genannte Personen sind: Karpaterina, Kunpalina, Kirrina, Mananingamani, Tipakulpani, Tinkana, Mindrana, Papananto, Milkajuglina, Merinimarpanda, Tilimarana, Kanimujana, Mandanodukillina, Karinirina, August, Emilie, Dintilina, Dorothea.] Das Diagr. bedarf wohl keiner weitlaufigen Erklarung mehr. Da 8. ngatamura ist zu 4-6 folglich auch ngatamura zu (13-14) und (17-18) als den (kanini -ngatata) zu 4 u. 6. 7 und 9 aber wieder in dem ngatamura-V erhaltnis zu 5 folg!. als deren "kanini-ngatata" auch zu (15-16) stehen so werden 13-18 in die erste Generation versetzt, in das Geschwister-Verhaltnis zu d. Gro13eltem, und kann 13 seine Schwester gegen die von August (15) vertauschen, 15 und 17 die Schwestem vertauschen. Deren Kinder treten dann wieder in das kami-Verhaltnis zu 8 resp. 7 u. 9 wie folgendem, umstehenden Diagramm zu ersehen ist.

Last edit 30 days ago by ALourie
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[Siehe Diagramm im Original: Genannte Personen sind: Mananingamana, Kulpalina, Tinkina, Moses, August, Karpaterini, Tipakulpani, Kirrina, Emilie, Dorothea, Mindrana, Papanato, Milkajuglina, Laura, Lydia, Merinimarpanda, Tilimarana,Kanimujana, Mandanodukillina, Karinirina, August, Emilie, Dintilina, Dorothea.] Da nadada=neji (ngatata) und kanini=kaku (ngatata) so diirften wir also die in 3. Reihe stehenden in gleiche Reihe stell en mit ihren Gro13eltem. 3. ist als neji Bnider zu 5, der Gro13mutter von 16, auch Bruder zu dieser 16 (Emilie). 17 ist als Gro13enkel von 6 zugleich deren Bruder; (wie also 6/ 5 noa-mara so auch Bruder u. Schwester von 5 u. 6 noa-mara.) Wie Emilie als kanini-ngatata so steht auch Emilies Gro13enkel in demselben Verhaltnis zu 9 wie ihre Gro13mutter, namlich in dem Verwandtschafsverhaltnis von papa, Vaters Schwester. [AIsFu13note eingefiigt:]Am einfachsten ist wohl die Erklarung: 16 ist als Schwester zu 2 auch (als Schwagerin) noa zu den Briidem von 1, dem noa von 2. Bruder von 1 ist aber als Bruder zu 5 auch 17, folglich auch 16 und 17 noa-mara. ~M310 Siebert 310 Nach unseren Vorstellungen ist also 9 die UrgroBmutter, nach den Begriffen der Dieri und umwohnender Volker ngatamura, zu 26, der Enke1in der Enke1in ihrer Tante (von Vaters Seite). 9 wird natiirlich auch kami zu 19 (GroBmutter vaterlicherseits) wie auch 8 kami wird zu 20. 18 Dorothea = noa zu 25 als nadada (GroBvaters Bruder) und 17 Dintilina als der Bruder des GroBvaters Moses (17) = noa zu 261 22 der richtige GroBvater steht dagegen nicht im noa-Verhaltnis, so nur sein Bruder. So wird z. B. 15, auch August, nur nadada sein zu 24, wiewohl 16 Emilie auch im noa-Verhaltnis stehen wird zu 23. 211 24 und 22123 konnten wir nun wieder in die erste Reihe stellen und mit Leichtigkeit nach dem bisher verfolgten Schema die Verwandtschaft bestimmen, d.h. mit den GroBenkeln treten wir immer wieder in die erste Reihe zuriick. Wir haben somit volles Recht, die jedesmalige 3. Generation, d.i. die 3.,6.9., 12., 15. Generation und so fort immer wieder mit der 1. Generation in eine Reihe zu stell en. Von Murdus der im Norden wohnenden Volker habe ich eine Anzahl zusammen, ebenso Legenden auch iiber murdu (autochthonisch); auch etliche weitere tribes (dem Zwergvolk im Norden). Doch davon spater im Zusammenhang. Fiir heute herzl. GruB. 1hr tr. Otto Siebert, Missionar. [N.B. Siebert's Nummern sind grossteils verkehrt. Howitt hat sie auf dem Original berichtigt]

Last edit 30 days ago by ALourie
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